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#1 Dec-19-2012 07:45:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4293
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Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Below, are 31 documents (11 federal censuses; 1 state census; 8 World War I military registration records; 5 World War II military registration records; 5 World War II army enlistment records & 1 state death record) which provide documentary evidence for the American Indian ancestry of the Ramapough Indians.  More than 90 individuals are listed or shown to be American Indians in these documents.  I have provided magnified images of ten of the hard-to-read census pages, for easy viewing.  The documents range, in date, from 1870 to 2003.


Richard Degrote & family, 1870 - This page is rather faded.  The race of Richard and his family members are all recorded as ditto marks in this census; so, you have to scroll up to the last person whose race was actually shown, in order to figure out the race listings for the ditto marks.  As you can see, that listing is "Ind," for "Indian."  Richard's family (9 people)are all listed as Indians in later censuses, as well.  Bear in mind that 1870 was the first federal census in which "Indian" was used.

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Florence McGinnes & household (8 people, including Margaret Dunk [? Van Dunk] & Edward Suffern), 1870 - the entire household listed as "I," for "Indian."

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Richard DeGrote and Clinton DeGrote and families - 1875 New York state census for Monroe Township, Orange County, NY - Richard and Clinton listed as "7/8 Ind" by the census taker--thus, their children would have been part Indian, as well.  (This is not the same Richard Degrote of the 1870 census.)

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Richard DeGrote   28   M   7/8 Ind   NJ   Day Laborer
Hannah DeGrote   26   F       M        NJ   
Sarah F. DeGrote   8   F    daughter NJ
Margaret A. DeGrote   6  F dauthter  Orange, NY   
Charles H. DeGrote   3-3/12   M  son  NJ

Clinton DeGrote   26   M   7/8 Ind   NJ   Day Laborer
Mary A. DeGrote   24   F       M       NJ   
Phebe J. DeGrote   5    F       M       NJ
Alice DeGrote       3-2/12  F   M      NJ


Robert Peterson and family, 1880 - Robert, a son of Solomon Peterson.  Note how Robert is listed as "I" (i.e., "Indian"), but his six children are all listed as "B" (i.e., "Black"), because their mother is listed as "B" (i.e., "Black").  This is a perfect example of how people were mis-categorized in those days.  His children could just as correctly have been identified as "Indian."  In truth, the same thing is probably true of Robert's wife, who was Harriet Mann.  She was very likely at least part Indian herself.

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John Peterson and family, 1900 - John (the son of Solomon Peterson) and three of John's children are all listed as "R," (i.e., "Red"), for "Indian."

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John Mann, Etta Mann & family, 1910 - Etta and her children (6 people) all listed as "In," for "Indian."  They had originally been listed as "Mu," for "Mulatto" (which could mean "part Indian), but, the census taker was obviously set straight about that (as happened in several other records we have seen).

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Peter Mann, 1917 - listed as "Indian."

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Paul Van Dunk, 1917 - listed as "Mohawk Indian."  It is probably impossible to say, at this late date, why he is listed as a Mohawk Indian.  Either he was part Mohawk; or he thought he was; or the clerk filling out the form thought he was.  In any case, he was a Ramapough Indian.

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William Henry Mann, 1917 - listed as "Indian."

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Herman Mann, 1917 - listed as "Indian."

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Charles E. Mann, 1917 - listed as "Indian."

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William Mann, 1918 - listed as "Indian" and U.S. "citizen."

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Samuel Mann, 1918 - listed as "Indian" and U.S. "citizen."

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Hudson DeFreese, 1918 - listed as "Indian" and U.S. "citizen."

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Tena (Van Dunk) Morgan, 1920 - listed as "Indian."  Note that Mrs. Morgan's children (though, not her!) were first listed as "B," but, the census taker changed their race to "Mulatto;" which, in this instance, means part Indian, obviously.  (How many more Ramapough Indians were misclassifed, wholly or partly, with no other records to provide evidence of their Indian ancestry?)

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John Mann, 1930 - listed as "In" ("Indian").

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Fred Mann & William Mann families, 1940 - 12 people all listed as "IN," for "Indian."

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Erskin Degroat & family, 1940 - 6 people all listed as "In," for "Indian."

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Rose Mann & family, 1940 - 3 people all listed as "In," for "Indian."  For some reason, a daughter is listed as "W," for "White," but that may be simply a mistake.

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Percy and Anna DeGroat, 1940 - 2 people listed as "In," for "Indian.

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Fred DeFreese, 1942 - listed as "Indian."

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Arthur C. Mann, 1942 - listed as "Indian."

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Oscar William Degroat, 1942 - listed as "Indian half breed."

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Henry Louis Mann, 1942 - listed as "Indian mullato."

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Daniel Conklin, 1942 - listed as "Indian."

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Allen J. Suffern, 1942 - listed as "American Indian" and "American citizen."

U.S. World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946
about Allen J Suffern
Name:    Allen J Suffern
Birth Year:    1910
Race:    American Indian, citizen (American)
Nativity State or Country:    New Jersey
State of Residence:    New Jersey
County or City:    Passaic
   
Enlistment Date:    20 Jul 1942
Enlistment State:    New Jersey
Enlistment City:    Newark
Branch:    Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Branch Code:    Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Grade:    Private
Grade Code:    Private
Term of Enlistment:    Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law
Component:    Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source:    Civil Life
   
Education:    Grammar school
Civil Occupation:    Semiskilled mechanics and repairmen, motor vehicles
Marital Status:    Separated, with dependents
Height:    67
Weight:    136


Robert H. Suffern, 1942 - listed as "American Indian" and "American citizen."

U.S. World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946
about Robert H Suffern
Name:    Robert H Suffern
Birth Year:    1912
Race:    American Indian, citizen (American)
Nativity State or Country:    New Jersey
State of Residence:    New Jersey
County or City:    Passaic
   
Enlistment Date:    28 Oct 1942
Enlistment State:    New Jersey
Enlistment City:    Newark
Branch:    Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Branch Code:    Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Grade:    Private
Grade Code:    Private
Term of Enlistment:    Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law
Component:    Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source:    Civil Life
   
Education:    Grammar school
Civil Occupation:    Skilled mechanics and repairmen, n.e.c.
Marital Status:    Married
Height:    70
Weight:    152


Theodore B. Suffern, 1942 - listed as "American Indian" and "American citizen."

U.S. World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946
about Theodore B Suffern
Name:    Theodore B Suffern
Birth Year:    1918
Race:    American Indian, citizen (American)
Nativity State or Country:    New Jersey
State of Residence:    New Jersey
County or City:    Passaic
   
Enlistment Date:    26 Dec 1942
Enlistment State:    New Jersey
Enlistment City:    Newark
Branch:    Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Branch Code:    Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Grade:    Private
Grade Code:    Private
Term of Enlistment:    Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law
Component:    Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source:    Civil Life
   
Education:    Grammar school
Civil Occupation:    Semiskilled chauffeurs and drivers, bus, taxi, truck, and tractor
Marital Status:    Married
Height:    70
Weight:    141


Douglas E. Suffern, Jr., 1945 - listed as "American Indian" and "American citizen."

U.S. World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946
about Douglas E Suffern Jr
Name:    Douglas E Suffern Jr
Birth Year:    1927
Race:    American Indian, citizen (American)
Nativity State or Country:    New Jersey
State of Residence:    New Jersey
County or City:    Passaic
   
Enlistment Date:    26 Nov 1945
Enlistment State:    New Jersey
Enlistment City:    Paterson
Branch:    Air Corps
Branch Code:    Air Corps
Grade:    Private
Grade Code:    Private
Term of Enlistment:    Enlistment for Hawaiian Department
Component:    Regular Army (including Officers, Nurses, Warrant Officers, and Enlisted Men)
Source:    Enlisted Man, Regular Army, after 3 months of Discharge
   
Education:    1 year of high school
Civil Occupation:    Baggagemen, transportation
Marital Status:    Single, with dependents
Height:    00
Weight:    009


Francis E. Mann, 1945 - listed as "American Indian" and U.S. "citizen."

U.S. World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946
Name:    Francis E Mann
Birth Year:    1917
Race:    American Indian, citizen (American)
Nativity State or Country:    New Jersey
State of Residence:    New Jersey
County or City:    Bergen
   
Enlistment Date:    24 Feb 1945
Enlistment State:    New Jersey
Enlistment City:    Newark
Branch:    No branch assignment
Branch Code:    No branch assignment
Grade:    Private
Grade Code:    Private
Term of Enlistment:    Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law
Component:    Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source:    Civil Life
   
Education:    Grammar school
Marital Status:    Married
Height:    88
Weight:    660


Catherine E. (Milligan) Wright, 2003, social security death index & North Carolina death record - listed as American Indian.

U.S., Social Security Death Index, 1935-Current
about Catherine E. Wright


Name: Catherine E. Wright
SSN: 150-18-2983
Last Residence: 27589 Warrenton, Warren, North Carolina, USA
Born: 6 Jan 1923
Last Benefit: 27589 Warrenton, Warren, North Carolina, United States of America
Died: 4 Mar 2003
State (Year) SSN issued: New Jersey (Before 1951)


North Carolina, Death Indexes, 1908-2004
about Catherine Elisabeth Wright


Name: Catherine Elisabeth Wright
[Catherine Elisabeth Milligan]
Gender: Female
Race: American Indian (American)
Hispanic Origin: Non-Hispanic
Marital Status: Widowed
Father's Last Name: Milligan
Age: 80 Years
Date of Birth: 6 Jan 1923
Residence City: Other
Residence County: Warren
Residence State: North Carolina
Residence Zip Code: 27589
Education: 12th grade
Date of Death: 4 Mar 2003
Death City: Other
Death County: Warren
Death State: North Carolina

Last edited by sschkaak (Dec-31-2013 04:51:pm)

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#2 Dec-19-2012 08:49:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11050

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Sticking it. smile

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#3 Dec-19-2012 08:59:pm

ramapoughnative
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Posts: 187
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Very nice Sschkaak! Anushiik!!  smile


Everything I do is for my grandmother for without her, I wouldn't be here today.

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#4 Dec-22-2012 01:45:am

ramapoughnative
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Posts: 187
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Might as well add one more..

from "Passaic County Historical Society dated June 11, 1872..

http://wiki.ramapoughlenapenation.org/wp-docs/Ramapaugh.jpg

Last edited by ramapoughnative (Dec-22-2012 09:45:am)


Everything I do is for my grandmother for without her, I wouldn't be here today.

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#5 Dec-22-2012 09:07:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Thanks for the correction, Steven!  Good reference.

Last edited by sschkaak (Dec-22-2012 11:18:am)

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#6 Dec-22-2012 09:46:am

ramapoughnative
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Posts: 187
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Sorry about that all.. Thanks Ray!


Everything I do is for my grandmother for without her, I wouldn't be here today.

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#7 Dec-31-2012 03:14:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4293
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Five new federal documents posted, today, 12/31/12, in post #1, above:  4 World War I military registration documents and 1 1920 census, showing Paul Van Dunk, William Henry Mann, Herman Mann, Charles E. Mann, and Tena (Van Dunk) Morgan and children.

Last edited by sschkaak (Dec-31-2012 03:15:pm)

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#8 Jan-02-2013 02:01:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4293
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

"A few months after my visit to Tappan, I made another tour to the vicinity. I passed two days in the romantic valley of the Ramapo, through which the New York and Erie rail-way courses. Every rocky nook, sparkling water-course, and shaded glen in that wild valley has a legendary charm. It is a ravine sixteen miles in extent, opening wide toward the fertile fields of Orange county. It was a region peculiarly distinguished by wild and daring adventure during the Revolution, and, at times, as important military ground. There the marauding Cow-boys made their rendezvous; and from its dark coverts, Claudius Smith, the merciless freebooter, and his three sons, with their followers, sallied out and plundered the surrounding country. Along the sinuous Ramapo Creek, before the war of the Revolution broke out. and while the ancient tribe of the Ramapaughs yet chased the deer on the rugged hills which skirt the valley, iron-forges were established, and the hammer-peal of spreading civilization echoed from the neighboring crags."

Lossing, Benson J., The Pictorial Field-Book of the Revolution, Vol. II, Chapter XXXII (1851)

Last edited by sschkaak (Jan-02-2013 04:46:pm)

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#9 Jan-02-2013 05:14:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11050

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Thank you sschkaak.

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#10 Jan-02-2013 06:31:pm

ramapoughnative
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Posts: 187
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Yes.. Thank you! smile


Everything I do is for my grandmother for without her, I wouldn't be here today.

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#11 Jan-03-2013 01:19:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4293
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

John De Fries / John Defrise, 1760 & 1761 - listed as "Indian."  These are two fairly well-known documents, but they should be posted on this thread because not everyone knows where to look for them.  Included, here, are the two title-pages, and pages 334-5 and 404-5.  The muster roll pages must be read together.  This is easy, since John Defries appears on the top line of both entries.  So, the top line of 334 goes with the top line of 335.  The top line of 404 goes with the top line of 405.  (I'll do a better job of formatting these when my scanner is working, again.)


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#12 Jan-03-2013 01:33:pm

ramapoughnative
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Have always wondered if they were 2 different people. One was 5'4+3/4", born in Tappan, entered service on 3/24. The other was 5'7", born in Orange Co., was a shoemaker and entered service 4/25.

Last edited by ramapoughnative (Jan-03-2013 01:33:pm)


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#13 Jan-03-2013 03:29:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

ramapoughnative wrote:

Have always wondered if they were 2 different people. One was 5'4+3/4", born in Tappan, entered service on 3/24. The other was 5'7", born in Orange Co., was a shoemaker and entered service 4/25.

I don't think so.  Some of these heights had to have been estimated.  For instance, the fellow just below De Fries, in 1760, "Henry Sniffen," was listed as 5' 5+3/4" in 1760, but as 5' 4" in 1761.  There are other examples like this, as well. 

In the 1760's, Tappan was in Orange County, NY (Rockland County hadn't formed, yet)--so, there is no real conflict in this.

During this period, these local militias were mustered, usually once a year, for a few months, at a time.  Each new muster would entail a new date for entry into service. 

As you know, also, this fellow is listed in 1762, too, as John Defrize, cordwainer (an old name for shoemaker), 5' 8" (a third measurement!).  I did not include this record, since nobody's race is listed in this document.  In any case, he was shown to be 25, 26 and 28 years old, in 1760, 1761 and 1762, respectively.  He was likely born sometime after April 25 and before June 17, 1735 or 1736 (depending on how age was reckoned in those days).  This would account for the two year difference in his age between 1761 and 1762.

Last edited by sschkaak (Jan-30-2013 07:36:pm)

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#14 Jan-03-2013 03:41:pm

ramapoughnative
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

agreed.. smile


Everything I do is for my grandmother for without her, I wouldn't be here today.

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#15 Jan-14-2013 02:56:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Five new federal documents posted, today, 1/14/13, in post #1, above:  1 World War II military registration document and 4 World War II military enlistment documents, showing Daniel Conklin, Allen J. Suffern, Robert H. Suffern, Theodore B. Suffern and Douglas E. Suffern.

Last edited by sschkaak (Jan-14-2013 02:56:pm)

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#16 Jan-27-2013 01:45:pm

ramapoughnative
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Anushiik Ray! Teddy was my gr- grandmother's brother. I didn't know about the others military records.. thanks for the find! smile


Everything I do is for my grandmother for without her, I wouldn't be here today.

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#17 Jan-27-2013 03:16:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

ramapoughnative wrote:

Anushiik Ray! Teddy was my gr- grandmother's brother. I didn't know about the others military records.. thanks for the find! smile

You're welcome!  Glad to hear that connection with one of our list members, here!

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#18 Feb-27-2013 09:39:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

"Harrison Van Dunk was the man in charge of the stable.  He was employed by the Hewitts for many, many years...  He was one of the Mountain Boys, and he used to tell me different stories of ...his early years in Ringwood...  He was tall, strong, and a big man.  He was an unusual man.  He wore a copper bracelet, and he showed me that he had had his ears pierced when he was a youngster."

I Remember Ringwood:  A 1920 Era Walking Tour Oral Narrative, by Louis P. West, tape-recorded circa 1973, transcription published by the North Jersey Highlands Historical Society, Ringwood, NJ (2010), page 5. 

Copper bracelets were found among the Indian artifacts on at least two post-contact archaeological sites in New Jersey.

Ear-piercing, among men, did not really begin until the 1920's in the United States (so far as I'm able to learn)--except among American Indians.  Harrison Van Dunk was born in the mid 1860's.  He would have been "a youngster" in the 1870's and 1880's.  It seems likely that this instance of ear-piercing was an Indian cultural survival.

Last edited by sschkaak (Aug-02-2013 06:51:pm)

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#19 Mar-05-2013 09:17:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Added one more document showing Percy and Anna DeGroat listed as Indians, in the 1940 federal census of NJ.  To date, about 75 individuals have been shown to be so listed in these records.

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#20 Mar-05-2013 09:40:am

ramapoughnative
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Anushiik Sschkaak!
  Isn't it interesting that you, I and a host of others can find these records but Cohen couldn't? I wish I was more knowledgeable on our history back then.  thank you very much for your research. smile


Everything I do is for my grandmother for without her, I wouldn't be here today.

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#21 Mar-05-2013 11:16:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

I don't think Cohen was really interested in doing extensive research for evidence of Indian ancestry.  That aspect of Ramapough history and genealogy was badly neglected by him, in my opinion.  At a minimum, he should have found the earlier census records and all the military records, during the time he was working on his book--as well as some of the cultural survivals.  All these records I'm posting will, I hope, appear in Ed Lenik's third book on the Ramapough Indians, which he's working on, presently.  His works will constitute a very strong trilogy.

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#22 Mar-05-2013 11:49:am

ramapoughnative
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

Funny.. I am having this same conversation to another of my family members who is my 6th cousin from the Suffern side and she is also writing a book about John Suffern. She has also been working on the Ramapough/Suffern connection and found much of cohen's work wrong. Cohen made claims when he couldn't find (or ignored) the data that has been recently proven wrong by the Suffern descendents. She has been in contact with him (cohen) and said she was not impressed at all with his work. lol

now the question remains "if and when" in the future we should pursue a slander suit against him. He made a small fortune selling those stupid lies.

,

Last edited by ramapoughnative (Mar-05-2013 11:52:am)


Everything I do is for my grandmother for without her, I wouldn't be here today.

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#23 Mar-06-2013 10:16:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

More "puzzling," to me, is the failure of the BIA's Bureau of Acknowledgment and Recognition's genealogist, historian and anthropologist--all of whom, presumably, had better access to these kinds of records than did Cohen; and yet, they, too, failed to find a lot of them!  It is hoped the State of New Jersey (and New York, for that matter) will do a better job.

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#24 Mar-06-2013 08:06:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

And yet another added, today:  John Mann, "Indian," in the 1930 federal census for Ramapo, Rockland County, New York.

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#25 Nov-27-2013 10:11:pm

NanticokePiney
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Ramapough Indians

sschkaak wrote:

More "puzzling," to me, is the failure of the BIA's Bureau of Acknowledgment and Recognition's genealogist, historian and anthropologist--all of whom, presumably, had better access to these kinds of records than did Cohen; and yet, they, too, failed to find a lot of them!  It is hoped the State of New Jersey (and New York, for that matter) will do a better job.

Welcome to Nova Ceasaria


There was Defrise's listed in Alloway about 1712 but most historians think they were a German glassworker family brought in to work at Wistarburg. A Harmon came up and joined the Ramapough. Steven or somebody else had the record. I think he was a Continental soldier.


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
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