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#1 Jul-28-2010 07:09:pm

NanticokePiney
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Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

We haven't had a good go-at-it lately Skunk. I'm looking forward to it. big_smile


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#2 Jul-28-2010 08:08:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

NP writes:

sschkaak wrote:
What is the Rappahannock word for it?

Let me find my John Smith papers

I'm going to start a separate thread rather than derail this one.



The reason I ask is because the original meanings of some Lenape words were, post contact, applied to European-introduced items.  In some cases, both the original meaning and the applied meaning were retained; but, in other cases, the original meaning was lost, over time.  If I see the Rappahannock word for "maygrass," I may recognize a cognate form in Lenape, which has been disguised by its later application.

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#3 Jul-28-2010 09:03:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

Let me give you an example of what I'm saying.  We wouldn't know what the original Lenape word for 'wild rice' (Zizania aquatica) was, except for the fact that we have cognates for it in other Algonquian languages.  The word is "maloom," which came to be used for 'wheat.'  However, when we compare Powhatan, "mattoume" ('wild rice'); Fox, "manomina" ('wild rice'); Micmac, "malomina" ('rice'); Penobscot, "malomin" ('wild rice'); etc., we can easily see that the Lenape word, "maloom" ('wheat') is the old word for 'wild rice.'  [from Proto-Algonquian, *mathomina ('wild rice')]  In fact, it ("malomin") also took on the meaning, 'wheat,' in Nipmuck.

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#4 Jul-28-2010 09:06:pm

tree hugger
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

That's pretty cool, thanks. Okay stepping out now. lol

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#5 Jul-28-2010 09:25:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

tree hugger wrote:

That's pretty cool, thanks. Okay stepping out now. lol

Another pretty cool thing is that if we don't have a Lenape word for 'maygrass,' but we do have other Algonquian words for 'maygrass,' then we can reconstruct the missing Lenape word from its Proto-Algonquian original, with a degree of certainty of about 90%.

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#6 Jul-28-2010 09:59:pm

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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

That's more than cool, that's exciting. big_smile

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#7 Jul-28-2010 11:44:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

You might be correct about the Lenape of the Outer Coastal Plain, in New Jersey.  I'll have to check that.  I was thrown off by the reference to "Unalachtgo"--for whom no evidence exists that they ever lived in Cumberland County!  And, you also mentioned the "Mantuak," in this regard--who also did not live on the Outer Coastal Plain!

(I edited out my original reply because it did not address the specific area of the Outer Coastal Plain of New Jersey.)

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-29-2010 10:21:am)

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#8 Jul-29-2010 11:55:am

NanticokePiney
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

The book title should be a recognizable mistake. I think the Unalachtigo lived between Toms River and Belmar up on the Northern hook of the state and may include the Sankhikan, Navasink and Raritans.
The Mantuak lived right on the edge of the Cuesta Belt. Even though they aren't on the Outer Coastal Plain there was a reference to them gathering either little barley or maygrass made by one of the Dalbo brothers ( Indian hops). I'm still looking for it in my bookcase or filing cabinet. 


sschkaak wrote:

The reason I ask is because the original meanings of some Lenape words were, post contact, applied to European-introduced items.  In some cases, both the original meaning and the applied meaning were retained; but, in other cases, the original meaning was lost, over time.  If I see the Rappahannock word for "maygrass," I may recognize a cognate form in Lenape, which has been disguised by its later application.

I was just going to ask you about Rappahannock and Choptank words concerning food that are not found among the Lenape and their cognate form.

Rappahannock

Mattoume- Maygrass, but you wrote that it was related to other Algonquian terms for wild rice. The problem with that is Smith said wasn't gathered on a marsh or tidal flat but on a spong or shore line. Wild rice on the Maurice River and Timber Creek doesn't grow on the shore. Only on the mud flats. It needs to be literally flooded to be watered and only the tide can do that.

Ampkone- Frying pan made of stone or clay. These objects have also been found in Cumberland County, New Jersey but no other part of *cough*, I hate saying this, "Lenapehoking"

Apones- Bread

Apoanocanosutck- little barley, acorn or maygrass bread

Asapan -cognate- Sapan (this is a no-brainer)

   I'm using the term "Choptank" because that is the actual dialect of the only surviving Nanticoke word list which I now can't find.


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#9 Jul-29-2010 01:05:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

The Unalachtgo we know about (Teedyuscung's son, Zacharias, Bill Chilloway and Weskhattes) were all from that area between Tom's River and Trenton.  The early 17th-century Sankhikan vocabulary is generally thought to be Unalachtgo.  Whether or not the name originated further south, with the "Naraticon," is a question that needs answering.  In any event, the Naraticon did not inhabit the Outer Coastal Plain, either.  The name, "Raritan," has been applied, historically, to at least two different peoples--one of which was clearly composed of Munsee speakers.  The Navesink spoke Munsee, too.

I would never claim that people who raised corn didn't also gather wild rice and/or maygrass.  I'm simply asserting that the Lenape of South Jersey (at least, the Inner Coastal Plain folks) did raise corn.  This seems clear, in the case of the Mantuak.  David Pietersenzoon de Vries, under the date of January 9, 1633, wrote:

  "The 9th, they came aboard again in the morning, and brought Indian corn of different colors, for which we exchanged duffels, kettles, and axes." 

The Indians from whom de Vries got this corn included the "Armewanninge" and "Mantes" (i.e., "Mantuak").  This took place on the south side of the mouth of Big Timber Creek, where it enters the Delaware River, in present Gloucester County, NJ.   [see Myers, A.C., ed., Narratives of Early Pennsylvania, West New Jersey and Delaware, 1630-1707, New York (1912), pp.18-21] 

The Proto-Algonquian word, *mathomina ('wild rice'), probably designated, originally, "any stiff grass bearing edible grain" (Siebert).  So, its connotations may have included 'maygrass' and 'wild rice' in Lenape.  The quote I have, from Smith, says it "groweth as our bents do in meadows ...seed is not much unlike to rye, though much smaller ...this they use for dainty bread buttered with deer suet."

Campanius records a Lenape word, tahkan ('wheat'), which may, or may not, refer to one or other of these.  Wish we had more Algonquian words for 'maygrass,' to compare.

Your apones and asapan are, of course, Lenape (NU) achpoan ('bread') and sachsapan ('suppawn' or 'corn soup').  I'll have to study the other two.  They're not immediately familiar to me.

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-29-2010 01:49:pm)

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#10 Jul-29-2010 04:30:pm

NanticokePiney
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

sschkaak wrote:

The Indians from whom de Vries got this corn included the "Armewanninge" and "Mantes" (i.e., "Mantuak").  This took place on the south side of the mouth of Big Timber Creek, where it enters the Delaware River, in present Gloucester County, NJ.   [see Myers, A.C., ed., Narratives of Early Pennsylvania, West New Jersey and Delaware, 1630-1707, New York (1912), pp.18-21]

The Armewamex definately grew corn. There was this advocational archaeologist whose collection I examined in the early 80s on several occasions after. He use to dig in Chews Landing on the high bluff looking over Timber Creek at the old Slims Ranch which was a large Late Woodland occupation site. He had 3 carbonized cobs in with his pottery sherd collection.

Those 2 bands must of had real close ties because Hippolite Lefever wrote that "Tonhutt" or "Tonhott" went up with some warriors ( including Lefever) to to join some allies on Timber Creek including some Susquehannocks to fight the "Sennicka?s?" which I'm assuming is the Mohawk.

Ermerwoc
Armewanninge 
Armewamex
Do you know what the translation for this band name is? Alan Carman always told me that this band and the Mantese were the 2 most warlike but I think they were misconstrued because they were into their "Death Cult" and probably held Skeleton Dances togther.

Last edited by NanticokePiney (Jul-29-2010 04:31:pm)


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#11 Jul-29-2010 05:53:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

See posts 19-22, here:  http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5621

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-29-2010 05:54:pm)

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#12 Jul-29-2010 09:16:pm

NanticokePiney
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

sschkaak wrote:

See posts 19-22, here:  http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5621

*FACEPALM*

......ok derail a minute

Behind Chews Landing on the Road that leads to Camden County College is a golf course. Behind the golf course is a large heavily wooded piece of property which is owned by the Grimaldi family. It is basically a large stream valley where the Grimaldis, a wealthy Philly family built a "Prohibition Playground" consisting of several concrete pavillions and a swimming pool in the 1920s. If was left wooded to hide the booze parties and the trees are "old growth". On top of the highest point the one pavillion foundation cracked open and Mrs. Grimaldi found a large cache of woodland triangles. I investigated the site and found no cores, debitage or ground stone tools. I did find a Meadowood cache on the other hill (which is still there waiting for Cara).
  I have never saw or heard of woodland triangles being cached anywhere, bifaces, but not actual arrowheads and I wonder if it had to do with some sort of warfare. Alan thought maybe a disaster struck or something happened to the knapper and his works were disposed of.

What's you and Lenape's thoughts?


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#13 Jul-29-2010 10:59:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

I don't know.  If I had to make a guess (and I do), I'd say it's either a cache or they were accidentally dropped there.  I'm not familiar with any kind of ritual burial of arrowheads among the Lenape.

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#14 Nov-21-2010 12:45:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

sschkaak wrote:

Let me give you an example of what I'm saying.  We wouldn't know what the original Lenape word for 'wild rice' (Zizania aquatica) was, except for the fact that we have cognates for it in other Algonquian languages.  The word is "maloom," which came to be used for 'wheat.'  However, when we compare Powhatan, "mattoume" ('wild rice'); Fox, "manomina" ('wild rice'); Micmac, "malomina" ('rice'); Penobscot, "malomin" ('wild rice'); etc., we can easily see that the Lenape word, "maloom" ('wheat') is the old word for 'wild rice.'  [from Proto-Algonquian, *mathomina ('wild rice')]  In fact, it ("malomin") also took on the meaning, 'wheat,' in Nipmuck.

How do they gather and prepare the wild rice?

By going into the marshes or pond where it grows with canoes pushing them in amongst it bending it over the canoe and beating it off into the canoe with a stick after gathered they rub or beat it till they have separated the hull from the kernel then they winnow or fan it.

Can you give any particular account of the mode of growth &c. of this plant?

It generally grows in enundated countries or large ponds of still water that is clear from timber it grows very rank and thick that it is difficult forcing a canoe in among it though the water is sufficiently deep the stalk is hollow and about 1/4 of an inch in diameter the leaf resembles the oats or corn leaf.  The largest grains are half an inch in length the kernel is small very little larger than a large pin its colour is dark upon the outside but white within when boiled it is white and very palitable if a person eats plentifully of it, in a short time he can eat with equally as good an appetite.  Geese, ducks and other kinds of fowls frequent these pond &c. in large companies.


["Answers to General Cass's Questions" (1821-1822), in Weslager, C. A., The Delaware Indian Westward Migration, Wallingford, PA (1978), page 119]

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#15 Nov-23-2010 12:48:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

Here's a good reference from Peter Kalm's journal:

November the 26th--At Philadelphia  [1749 - R.W.]

Remarks about Plants.  To-day I met Mr. John Bartram for the first time since my return from Canada...  When I talked with him about Fol. avoine (Zizania aquatica, Indian rice), he told me he thought this to be that tall, thick grass which grows here in brooks and other bodies of water and has long, grain-bearing seeds.  The Indians had formerly gathered these seeds for food.  Now they are eaten by a bird which is described and pictured in [Mark] Catesby's Ornithology and is called the ricebird (bobolink)...  Mr. Bartram believed this wild Indian rice to be a good food, but encountered a difficulty in its gathering, since it ripens very unevenly and not all simultaneously.  It begins to ripen in the beginning of August and continues to do so the rest of the month.


[Benson, Adolph B., Peter Kalm's Travels in North America:  The English Version of 1770, page 642]

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#16 Dec-01-2010 03:24:pm

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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

Hey everybody!

I hate to go off subject, but I just HAD to throw in some more on grains/wheat etc.

Schmick in 1755 recorded the Mahican word  “Manóme" as meaning "‘wheat, grain’", and "Sĕkănōmĕ" as meaning "‘grain, rye, buckwheat’" (perhaps due to the dark color of buchwheat?)

Next, on records of Lenape people growing wheat in the 18th century, we have this description from the Esopus country in the mid-18th century from the Journal of John Reading "We set forward with a guide from Mahekkamack through the hills, through which we steered along a very blind path over very stony ground till we arrived at a branch of the Hudsons River called Wallakill, at an Indian plantation in good fence, and well improved, raise wheat and horses… The Indian town aforementioned called Chechong in our path. At night we met two Indian squa’s on stride upon one horse.” (Journal of John Reading, 19.)

I know there are more references somewhere. Captain Chipps mentioned in 1821 that wheat was raised in greater quantities than other grain, though of course they still grew corn.

Then we have the modern Unami and Munsee words for rice, “pèhpastèk” and “pehpáasteek”, respectively (basically the same thing), and I wonder whether this word once referred to wild rice (Zizania aquatica) and the word for wheat was used for other grain-bearing grassy plants, like maygrass? What do you all think?

Justin

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#17 Dec-01-2010 03:28:pm

Pepaxkang
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

I once tried a traditional wild rice dish harvested and cooked over the fire by this awesome Ojibwa guy I met five years ago. It was seasoned with maple sugar and cooked with whitefish, and the grains were pretty different from other rice species (well, Oryza sativa) in terms of flavor, shape, texture, etc.

I find large stands of Zizania aquatica in the tidal marshes of the Hudson River. They're beautiful plants.

Justin

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#18 Dec-01-2010 06:56:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

Germain LaRoche makes a good case that the mattoume of John Smith's account was probably maygrass.  ( see:  https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/handle/10125/229 )  His chief evidence is that Smith says the seed of mattoume is much smaller than that of rye, which that of maygrass is, while the seed of wild rice is not.  However, it's less clear that this is what the Delaware cognate word, maloom, meant.  Zeisberger renders it by 'wheat'--but, what does this mean?  Does it mean the introduced crop from the Old World?  It could have been applied to that by the Lenape (and probably was, given the words from Schmick you cite), but, it certainly meant something else, originally, or it wouldn't even be in the Delaware vocabulary.  Likewise, it could also mean that Zeisberger used the name of the European item ('wheat' or 'Weizen') for translation purposes, as being the closest equivalent to the native plant that he could think of.  (This was a common practice of Zeisberger.  For instance, he translated gawi ('porcupine') as 'hedgehog,' pabhacku ('ruffed grouse') as 'pheasant,' and so forth.)  Unfortunately, 'wheat' is not as diagnostic as 'rye,' since the length of a wheat seed is almost exactly in the middle, between that of wild rice and maygrass.  Nevertheless, we have historical evidence that shows the Lenape used wild rice for food (see the quotations from Peter Kalm and Weslager, posted above); and, we have archaeological evidence for its appearance on sites in the Delaware River watershed (see Timothy Messner's 2008 doctoral dissertation, Woodland Period People and Plant Interactions:  New Insights from Starch Grain Analysis, Temple University); although, there is also archaeological evidence of Maygrass, too.  So, for now, I'm going to continue to translate the Delaware word, maloom, as 'wild rice.'  (Of course, as pointed out earlier, the word could have been a generic for any stiff food grass.)

Last edited by sschkaak (Dec-02-2010 08:28:am)

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#19 Feb-11-2011 08:53:am

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

sschkaak wrote:

Let me give you an example of what I'm saying.  We wouldn't know what the original Lenape word for 'wild rice' (Zizania aquatica) was, except for the fact that we have cognates for it in other Algonquian languages.  The word is "maloom," which came to be used for 'wheat.'  However, when we compare Powhatan, "mattoume" ('wild rice'); Fox, "manomina" ('wild rice'); Micmac, "malomina" ('rice'); Penobscot, "malomin" ('wild rice'); etc., we can easily see that the Lenape word, "maloom" ('wheat') is the old word for 'wild rice.'  [from Proto-Algonquian, *mathomina ('wild rice')]  In fact, it ("malomin") also took on the meaning, 'wheat,' in Nipmuck.

Another name for wild rice is 'water oats' (see Wikipedia, for example).  All these European names for grains ('rice,' 'oats,' 'wheat,' 'barley,' etc.) were applied to various wild grains found in the Western Hemisphere.  That the Delaware word, "maloom," meant 'wild rice' is shown in one of John Heckewelder's word-lists now housed among the manuscripts at the American Philosophical Society in Philadelphia.  In his "A Comparative Vocabulary of the Algonkin and Delaware Languages" {see Languages and Lore of the Long Island Indians, ed. by Gaynell Stone Levine, p.147}, he lists the Delaware word, "maloom," as the equivalent of the Algonkin (Ojibway) word, "malomin"--both glossed as 'wild oats.'  We know, however, that malomin is 'wild rice,' in Ojibway.  In other words, 'wild oats' and 'wild rice' refer to the exact same wild grain (Zizania sp.).  So, the Delaware word, maloom, does mean 'wild rice.'

I know this has been a pressing question on everyone's mind!  lol

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#20 Feb-14-2011 01:10:pm

Pepaxkang
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

Anischi Sschkaak!

I wonder whether this Delaware word, as found on page 186 of Scmick's Mahican dictionary, is related?

Wēlŏmè- ‘bunch of grapes’ / [Delaware]

I feel like I've seen this word in another vocabulary, but I don't remember where. I wonder whether '-lome' is a suffix deriving from some meaning of a bunch or cluster of fruit (as in a bunch of grapes, or a head of rice or other wild grain.) Just a wild guess!

Justin

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#21 Feb-14-2011 02:43:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

Pepaxkang wrote:

Anischi Sschkaak!

I wonder whether this Delaware word, as found on page 186 of Scmick's Mahican dictionary, is related?

Wēlŏmè- ‘bunch of grapes’ / [Delaware]

I feel like I've seen this word in another vocabulary, but I don't remember where. I wonder whether '-lome' is a suffix deriving from some meaning of a bunch or cluster of fruit (as in a bunch of grapes, or a head of rice or other wild grain.) Just a wild guess!

Justin

It's related, in the sense that both words, miloom, and wēlŏmè, have suffixes meaning "grain," "seed," "nut" or "fruit":  -m (short for -min).  Grube ["Einige Dellawarische Redensarten und Worte"] lists "wiiluum" as 'tendril,' and "wilumminagunschi" as 'vine.'  You can also find it here, http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4230 (see Message #6), as wilum:  where I suppose Fabricius is using it as 'fruit of the vine,' since he translates it as "wine."

Last edited by sschkaak (Feb-14-2011 02:45:pm)

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#22 Feb-14-2011 03:51:pm

Pepaxkang
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

sschkaak wrote:

It's related, in the sense that both words, miloom, and wēlŏmè, have suffixes meaning "grain," "seed," "nut" or "fruit":  -m (short for -min).  Grube ["Einige Dellawarische Redensarten und Worte"] lists "wiiluum" as 'tendril,' and "wilumminagunschi" as 'vine.'  You can also find it here, http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4230 (see Message #6), as wilum:  where I suppose Fabricius is using it as 'fruit of the vine,' since he translates it as "wine."

Ahhhh, I see.

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#23 Mar-18-2014 03:14:pm

Papelanek
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

Hey everybody! I'm opening up a three-year dead thread. Maybe I should make a new one. tongue Anyway...

How much evidence exists regarding use of maygrass (Phalaris caroliniana) in the Delaware Valley in the Late Woodland period? The starch grain analysis work of Messner et al. seems to show little barley (Hordeum pusillum) far more often than other [semi?]domesticated grains.
(I don't have time at the moment to dig through a ton of archaeological data, so I thought I would take the lazy [efficient?] route, haha).

- Justin

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#24 Mar-18-2014 06:46:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

I'm outta ammo on this one.  I can't recall ever reading anything about either "maygrass" or "little barley"--so-called.  But, who knows what someone writing 250-350 years ago might have called them?

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#25 Mar-18-2014 10:12:pm

Suckachsinheet
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Re: Horticulture and Gathering on the Outer Coastal Plain- For/ Against

Rich talks about maygrass a lot. He would be able to give you a definitive opinion, but he is not active online right now. Hopefully he will see your inquiry soon, if he logs on from the cultural center or something. TH, could you let him know his expertise is needed?? big_smile


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