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#176 May-16-2018 12:01:am

johnb
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

19. "him whom she held"

keelennatpannil or keelennatpanni

It IS a Conjunct Order Obviative form.  And, participles must undergo initial change.

Lesson 2, Part 3 shows participles with obviative endings.  Other conjunct modes do not use them.

Just so I can be laser clear as I go back and make a notation for myself. The Conjunct Order-Obviative Form IS ALSO A Participle? And because it is a Participle, it has an initial change.

I also now understand the "-t-" much better. It which is actually the "-t" ending for a participle and can be changed to "-tsch" when followed directly by the "-il" obviative ending.

I was just correcting the word you wrote as "kleenawahan."  The prohibitive mode ending is just -ahan.  It doesn't have a -w- in it.  And, imperatives do not undergo any kind of initial change.

The "-w-" in "kleenawahan" now makes much more sense to me. It's not a negative suffix! It's part of the verb stem. I was mixing those up.

(It is evident that the aging process has dulled my mental acuity!)

nwuliwoata - "I know well" (I think I've got that right? I haven't learned how to use "you" as an object in a verb construction.)

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#177 May-16-2018 11:12:am

sschkaak
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Your understanding on these points is correct. 

nwuliwoata should be noliwoatam ("I know well").

You wrote:  "I haven't learned how to use "you" as an object in a verb construction."   You soon will.

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#178 May-16-2018 10:48:pm

johnb
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

nwuliwoata should be noliwoatam ("I know well").

Of course....because the verb doesn't just start with "w-" it starts with "wu-"

But why does it end with "-m"? The example in Lesson 7 Part 1 with "pohonasin" drops the final "-n" in its conjugations except for "there is drumming going in."

I interpreted the AI Independent Indicative verbal construction as a prefix + the verb stem.

Back to Lesson 10.

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#179 May-17-2018 09:20:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

johnb wrote:

sschkaak wrote:

nwuliwoata should be noliwoatam ("I know well").

Of course....because the verb doesn't just start with "w-" it starts with "wu-"

But why does it end with "-m"? The example in Lesson 7 Part 1 with "pohonasin" drops the final "-n" in its conjugations except for "there is drumming going in."

I interpreted the AI Independent Indicative verbal construction as a prefix + the verb stem.

This verb is not an AI (Animate Intransitive) verb.  It is an OTI (Objectless Transitive Inanimate) verb.  You haven't gotten to the TI verb lessons yet.

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#180 May-18-2018 12:52:am

johnb
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

This verb is not an AI (Animate Intransitive) verb.  It is an OTI (Objectless Transitive Inanimate) verb.  You haven't gotten to the TI verb lessons yet.

Ah interesting...so I went back to Lesson 6. The difference between AI and OTI seems very subtle.

"1. Animate Intransitive (AI) - An AI verb is one the action of which is performed by an animate subject--that is, by a grammatically "living" being. These verbs have a subject, but no "object."

3. Objectless Transitive Inanimate (OTI) - An OTI verb is one the action of which is performed by an animate subject, but which has no "object" (similar to AI verbs)."

I guess I'll wait to see the OTI verb examples...

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#181 May-18-2018 01:25:am

johnb
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Question about Lesson 10, Part 5 - Absolute State of the Transitive Animate Theme 2 verb, with Indefinite Subject.

So the lesson starts out with the important idea that the TA Theme 2 Theme Sign is "the letter "k" (sometimes written as "c," "g" or "q"), after the verb stem."

I've been tracking that theme sign throughout parts 1-4, but when I get to part 5 it seems to have disappeared? Am I missing it? Does it not apply to Absolute State of TA Theme 2?

"kikeh-" ('heal somebody').

ngikeheek   "I am healed"

kikeheek   "you (sg.) are healed"

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#182 May-18-2018 05:33:am

sschkaak
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

johnb wrote:

Question about Lesson 10, Part 5 - Absolute State of the Transitive Animate Theme 2 verb, with Indefinite Subject.

So the lesson starts out with the important idea that the TA Theme 2 Theme Sign is "the letter "k" (sometimes written as "c," "g" or "q"), after the verb stem."

I've been tracking that theme sign throughout parts 1-4, but when I get to part 5 it seems to have disappeared? Am I missing it? Does it not apply to Absolute State of TA Theme 2?

"kikeh-" ('heal somebody').

ngikeheek   "I am healed"

kikeheek   "you (sg.) are healed"

It's the -k at the end of these words.  I simplified the theme sign to "k" here, in order to avoid the various morphophonemic changes it undergoes after various verb stems, which would unnecessarily complicate the lesson.  If you refer back to Lesson 6, Part 3, you'll recall this:

"TA Theme 2 - The TA "inverse theme sign" is "-ukw-." (The "-w" is sometimes dropped, in SPELLING, when this "theme sign" is at the end of a word.) Of course, the "k"-sound can show up as a "c," "g" or "q," also. This "theme sign" indicates that the initial "direction" of the verbal action is "right to left" (object < verb < subject)."

I didn't want to get into how and why the "-u-" of the underlying theme sign changes in different environments.  That's something that can be learned after these lessons, if you feel it necessary.  It's "easy" enough to simply learn what the surface forms look like without cluttering your mind with phonological rules.

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#183 May-19-2018 10:02:pm

johnb
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

"TA Theme 2 - The TA "inverse theme sign" is "-ukw-." (The "-w" is sometimes dropped, in SPELLING, when this "theme sign" is at the end of a word.) Of course, the "k"-sound can show up as a "c," "g" or "q," also. This "theme sign" indicates that the initial "direction" of the verbal action is "right to left" (object < verb < subject)."

Ah...indeed. I appreciate you trying to pare down the lessons at the expense of some of the subtleties like the "-u-". There's plenty to try to understand and follow as it is! Lesson 6 is becoming more and more useful as I move forward. I can see now how it's one almost worth revisiting as a student going through each new lesson on verbs. The first time through a few weeks ago lot of it didn't click for me smile

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#184 May-19-2018 11:03:pm

johnb
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Without you using those dashes I sometimes use as breaks to help me try to follow the different parts of the conjugation, can you help me unpack the suffixes from the TA 2 theme sign in Lesson 10 Part 7.

I'll give you three examples of the same general question about identifying TA 2 theme sign vs. other suffixes?

1. naalquonne "if she fetches you (sg.)"

I think "-qu" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-e" suffix for the subjunctive. Is "-onn" a separate bound pronoun suffix from the TA 2 theme sign?

2. naalquenke "if it fetches us (ex.)"

Again, I think "-qu" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-e" suffix for the subjunctive. Is "-enk" a separate bound pronoun suffix from the TA 2 theme sign?

3. naalquonk "that which fetches us (in.)"

I think "quo" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-nk" suffix for the participle. Basically I'm having a hard time identifying a bound pronoun suffix if there is one?

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#185 May-20-2018 12:57:am

sschkaak
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

johnb wrote:

Without you using those dashes I sometimes use as breaks to help me try to follow the different parts of the conjugation, can you help me unpack the suffixes from the TA 2 theme sign in Lesson 10 Part 7.

I'll give you three examples of the same general question about identifying TA 2 theme sign vs. other suffixes?

1. naalquonne "if she fetches you (sg.)"

I think "-qu" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-e" suffix for the subjunctive. Is "-onn" a separate bound pronoun suffix from the TA 2 theme sign?

Surface form is naal-qu-onn-e = Underlying form /naal-ukw-ann-e/ = verb stem-theme sign-2nd person singular-subjunctive mode.  (Remember that this theme sign ALWAYS indicates a 3rd person subject.  Underlying -a- changes to -o- in the surface form due to the influence of the preceding -w- of the theme sign.  That is, the pronunciation changes from short a to short o.)

2. naalquenke "if it fetches us (ex.)"

Again, I think "-qu" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-e" suffix for the subjunctive. Is "-enk" a separate bound pronoun suffix from the TA 2 theme sign?

Surface form is naal-qu-enk-e = Underlying form /naal-ukw-enk-e/ = verb stem-theme sign-1st person plural-subjunctive mode.

3. naalquonk "that which fetches us (in.)"

I think "quo" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-nk" suffix for the participle. Basically I'm having a hard time identifying a bound pronoun suffix if there is one?

Surface form is naal-qu-onk = Underlying form /naal-ukw-ankw-0/ = verb stem-theme sign-1st person plural inclusive.  (For -a- to -o-, see above.  The 0 [zero] at the end of the underlying form indicates that there is no position 7 peripheral ending which would indicate a plural, so the 3rd person subject is singular.  Whether it is animate or inanimate is determined by context.  For example, if "that which fetches us" is a canoe, then it's inanimate; but if it's a man then it's animate: "he who fetches us.")

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#186 Yesterday 12:10:am

johnb
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

Surface form is naal-qu-onn-e = Underlying form /naal-ukw-ann-e/ = verb stem-theme sign-2nd person singular-subjunctive mode.

This breakdown based on the underlying form is super helpful. I'm definitely trying to do far less sophisticated versions of this when I write a conjugated form down. It can lead to some tricky situations for me in terms of making sense of the conjugation. Interestingly it can apply to "simple" conjugations as well as more complex ones.

For example

1. Conjunct Indicative Mode-Positive Form: "Quatsch naatenink?" - Why am I taken? (Part 8)

verb stem-theme sign

2. Conjunct Indicative Mode-Negative Form: "Quatsch taku naateniwonk?" - Why am I not taken? (Part 8)

verb stem-negation suffix-theme sign ? But this isn't right because the theme sign should always follow the verb stem. So I would expect something like "Quatsch taku naatenonkwi?"

Finally, another participle form from Part 7, but this time for the third person

3. Participle: "naalit" - "he who fetches me" (Part 7)

verb stem-theme sign-3rd person participle ending

Does the "k" sound in the theme sign "disappear" to make way for the "-t" 3rd person participle animate ending?

I keep thinking I'll start the Quiz, but this is a dense lesson!

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#187 Yesterday 06:41:am

sschkaak
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

johnb wrote:

sschkaak wrote:

Surface form is naal-qu-onn-e = Underlying form /naal-ukw-ann-e/ = verb stem-theme sign-2nd person singular-subjunctive mode.

This breakdown based on the underlying form is super helpful. I'm definitely trying to do far less sophisticated versions of this when I write a conjugated form down. It can lead to some tricky situations for me in terms of making sense of the conjugation. Interestingly it can apply to "simple" conjugations as well as more complex ones.

For example

1. Conjunct Indicative Mode-Positive Form: "Quatsch naatenink?" - Why am I taken? (Part 8)

verb stem-theme sign

More fully:  verb stem-theme sign-conjunct indicative indefinite person suffix.  The underlying form is naaten-i-ink.  (The surface form merges the two "i's.")

2. Conjunct Indicative Mode-Negative Form: "Quatsch taku naateniwonk?" - Why am I not taken? (Part 8)

verb stem-negation suffix-theme sign ? But this isn't right because the theme sign should always follow the verb stem. So I would expect something like "Quatsch taku naatenonkwi?"

Bear in mind that the indefinite person is the subject of these forms which are rendered as passives, while the first person singular is actually the object.  It could be translated as "Why doesn't some indefinite person take me?"  That's really too clumsy for English, so using the passive voice is better.  Therefore, the surface form is naaten-i-w-onk = underlying form /naaten-i-w-ank/ = verb stem-theme sign-negative-conjunct indicative.  (Another possible surface form is naateniwink.  The form is so rare that variations did occur, but I chose the one shown in the lesson.  The breakdown remains the same.)

Finally, another participle form from Part 7, but this time for the third person

3. Participle: "naalit" - "he who fetches me" (Part 7)

verb stem-theme sign-3rd person participle ending

Does the "k" sound in the theme sign "disappear" to make way for the "-t" 3rd person participle animate ending?

The theme sign for 3rd person subject and 1st person object is -i-.  See Lesson 10, Part 6:  "{Please note that the forms with first person singular objects DO NOT use the usual theme sign, "k," but use, instead, an "i."  In addition, for first person singular objects, the Animate 3rd person subjects are distinguished by the suffix, "-t," and the Inanimate  3rd person Subjects are given the suffix "-k."  These are the only exceptions to the normal procedure, among TA Theme 2 verbs.}"

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#188 Yesterday 11:17:pm

johnb
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Posts: 67

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

johnb wrote:

3. Participle: "naalit" - "he who fetches me" (Part 7)

verb stem-theme sign-3rd person participle ending

Does the "k" sound in the theme sign "disappear" to make way for the "-t" 3rd person participle animate ending?

The theme sign for 3rd person subject and 1st person object is -i-.  See Lesson 10, Part 6:  "{Please note that the forms with first person singular objects DO NOT use the usual theme sign, "k," but use, instead, an "i."  In addition, for first person singular objects, the Animate 3rd person subjects are distinguished by the suffix, "-t," and the Inanimate  3rd person Subjects are given the suffix "-k."  These are the only exceptions to the normal procedure, among TA Theme 2 verbs.}"

Duh John! Right, so it's very simple actually: verb stem-theme sign-3rd person participle ending for the surface form naal-i-t

Ok, it's finally time to start the Quiz exercise.

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#189 Today 12:50:am

johnb
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Posts: 67

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

No grammar question tonight, but I do have somewhat of a philosophical question so feel free to answer this without extensive comment or by just punting.

The TA Theme 2 form: Why does this form exist? Why have an inverse verb form where the object comes first?

I looked at a copy of Ives Goddard's dissertation and he makes a comment that the "direct and inverse theme signs indicate the direction of the verbal rection along a parameter of what may be called distance." This goes from least distant (1st or second person) to most distant (inanimate subject). When the subject is less distant than the object, the direct form is used. When the subject is more distant than the participant, the inverse theme is used.

So I guess it seems like the kind of form to use when talking about other people far away, maybe.

I could always try to ask him in the future, of course, but I wondered if you had ever answered this question.

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#190 Today 06:34:am

sschkaak
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Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

johnb wrote:

No grammar question tonight, but I do have somewhat of a philosophical question so feel free to answer this without extensive comment or by just punting.

The TA Theme 2 form: Why does this form exist? Why have an inverse verb form where the object comes first?

I looked at a copy of Ives Goddard's dissertation and he makes a comment that the "direct and inverse theme signs indicate the direction of the verbal rection along a parameter of what may be called distance." This goes from least distant (1st or second person) to most distant (inanimate subject). When the subject is less distant than the object, the direct form is used. When the subject is more distant than the participant, the inverse theme is used.

So I guess it seems like the kind of form to use when talking about other people far away, maybe.

Well...  This is an example of the kind of language I specifically tried to keep out of my grammar.  Goddard's Delaware Verbal Morphology is the gold standard, but it almost requires formal training in linguistics; and, the great majority of people in my target audience were not academics.  I encourage you to use his grammar because you will be able to learn much and understand much, but I think you'll get more out of it after using mine.  This said, by "distance," Goddard did not mean distance "in space."  It merely means that 1st and 2nd persons take precedence over 3rd persons "in speech."  That is, their pronoun affixes precede 3rd person pronoun affixes in TA Theme 2 verbs in speech.  In a verb like "ktaptonaluk" ('he speaks to you (sg.)"), "he" is NOT speaking to you from "far away"!  You will note, also, that TA Theme 1 verbs NEVER have 1st or 2nd person objects.  TA Theme 2 verbs NEVER have 1st or 2nd person subjects, so there is no other way to make 1st and 2nd persons objects of 3rd person subjects than by using TA Theme 2 verbs.

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